Sherlock: NOT a Sociopath ?

[Carol the Dabbler]

In this interview, Steven Moffat states that when Sherlock says all those insulting things early in his best-man speech, he's merely "bullshitting":

 

“He always is. He doesn’t think that at all. He doesn’t think any of those things, but he wants to think that he does, just as he wants to think he’s a high-functioning sociopath,” says Moffat. “He’s not a sociopath, nor is he high-functioning. He’d really like to be a sociopath. But he’s so f---ing not. The wonderful drama of Sherlock Holmes is that he’s aspiring to this extraordinary standard. He is at root an absolutely ordinary man with a very, very big brain. He’s repressed his emotions, his passions, his desires, in order to make his brain work better — in itself, a very emotional decision, and it does suggest that he must be very emotional if he thinks emotions get in the way. I just think Sherlock Holmes must be bursting!”

 

So -- comments?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Aside that a lot of what was in the speech comes right out of canon, things that Holmes said to Watson at one time or another, it has been very clear from the beginning that Sherlock Holmes was never a sociopath. If he was, he probably would never have become a "consulting" detective. Solving crimes yes, that might be challenge enough to be interesting, and wouldn't involve the public in any way. But one that deals directly with the public? To invite complete and total strangers into his home, his personal space? To actually sit and listen to them? A true sociopath probably wouldn't have.

 

 Yes, he did pick and choose. If to boring and mundane.....nope. But his obvious connection to Mrs. Hudson....Lestrade....the hints were there early on because a true sociopath has to fake any show of care for others. Sherlock's affection for Mrs. Hudson was not just a put on. Yes, a sociopath could have dropped a person repeatedly out a window for any or no reason at all. But the look on Sherlock's face when he walks into 221b and sees Mrs. Hudson's cleaning things on the floor, the scuff marks on the woodwork, the rip in the wall paper caused by Mrs. Hudson trying to grab hold of something as she is being dragged up the stairs, this look was not faked, this was raw emotion, anger. Someone was going to pay for hurting someone he cared for.

[T.o.b.y]

In this interview, Steven Moffat states that when Sherlock says all those insulting things early in his best-man speech, he's merely "bullshitting":

 

“He always is. He doesn’t think that at all. He doesn’t think any of those things, but he wants to think that he does, just as he wants to think he’s a high-functioning sociopath,” says Moffat. “He’s not a sociopath, nor is he high-functioning. He’d really like to be a sociopath. But he’s so f---ing not. The wonderful drama of Sherlock Holmes is that he’s aspiring to this extraordinary standard. He is at root an absolutely ordinary man with a very, very big brain. He’s repressed his emotions, his passions, his desires, in order to make his brain work better — in itself, a very emotional decision, and it does suggest that he must be very emotional if he thinks emotions get in the way. I just think Sherlock Holmes must be bursting!”

 

So -- comments?

 

If this is what they are trying to express with the way Sherlock is written and acted, they're doing a splendid job. Especially with the "he wants to think that he does" bit. For me, the most "humanizing" trait of Sherlock is this gap between who he is and who he would like to be (or thinks he should be). Who can't identify with that? He makes more sense as a character the way Moffat describes him here than he would if he really were a cold, heartless, entirely rational being who just occasionally faked emotions when necessary. Why tell a story about someone like that?

 

I also think this is a very plausible interpretation of the original Mr Holmes. No matter how often Dr Watson describes him as a "reasoning machine", in at least every other story he notices to his astonishment that there is some "hidden fire" behind all that (and it always makes me laugh when Watson goes "I had never seen so much of his heart before", because he actually does see quite a lot over the course of fifty plus stories and at some point, it's just ridiculous that he's still not supposed to have caught on.)

[Carol the Dabbler]

But that's what Watson's for, isn't it?     Thanks goodness John doesn't have to play the dolt, because thanks to television, we can see and hear what happens for ourselves.

 

Yes, I think this is a perfectly plausible explanation of Sherlock's behavior.  For one thing, it's consistent with the bravado of a young man -- and for that reason, I suspect we may see less of his faux-sociopath behavior as the show goes on (which would also be consistent with his somewhat more "normal" behavior in later canon).

 

[wildwoodflower]

But that's what Watson's for, isn't it?     Thanks goodness John doesn't have to play the dolt, because thanks to television, we can see and hear what happens for ourselves.

 

Yes, I think this is a perfectly plausible explanation of Sherlock's behavior.  For one thing, it's consistent with the bravado of a young man -- and for that reason, I suspect we may see less of his faux-sociopath behavior as the show goes on (which would also be consistent with his somewhat more "normal" behavior in later canon).

 

I always like to remind people that Sherlock Holmes was like 26 or 27 when he first met Watson.  One of my favorite scenes in the very first story is when Holmes is describing his brilliant test for human blood (I believe) and how it will change forensics forever because he is so damned clever and then he pauses and takes a bow (clearly mocking himself and how up his own ass he's just been). It's a very charming scene.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

In "A Study in Scarlet" Holmes is 27.

[Riddle]

I think Sherlock, being very self aware, probably sees some of his traits as being sociopathic and also probably admires sociopathic traits and would see them as useful. So yes, I can see that he would like to see himself as one. Whether he is or not, I don’t know. Perhaps he has some form of Aspergers or Autism, perhaps there’s no such thing and we all just have different personalities and we should lay off the labels (man!!).

 

I found this quote about the differences between psychopathy and sociopathy:

 

“Sociopaths are different from psychopaths and feel guilt for their actions. However, their emotional connection is limited to a certain group of people only with whom they can interact and build relationships with. Outside this group, the behavior of a sociopath is similar to that of a psychopath and he will reject the social norms just like him. A sociopath however, does not have a tendency to lie to people or manipulate them especially if they are part of his family or his group of friends instead he has genuine feelings for them and will feel remorse if he ends up hurting them in any way.”

 

If this is correct then I can quite easily see Sherlock as a sociopath. He obviously cares for certain people, even if he has difficulty / discomfort showing it. But it’s a small group of his chosen people, his attitude to ‘others’ does seem indifferent the majority of the time. The one exception I can think of is in ‘The Great Game’. I think he really was concerned about the old lady and struggled to suppress his concern (that’s how I saw the performance anyway).

 

Having said that, I like the idea that he wants to see himself as one but isn’t really. It makes for a more complex character and I guess it also makes life easier for the writers as they can explain away any behaviour, even the shenanigans in ‘The Empty Hearse’ when he was so bang out of order with John

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Since Sherlock grew up in a rather dysfunctional family. Daddy Holmes has a big secret that Sherlock and probably Mycroft found out about. Mummy is a genius and in Sherlock's words to Mrs. Hudson..."She understands very little"....a older brother that has treated Sherlock as if he was mentally challenged most of his life...the emotional and mental abuse probably has been such that Sherlock has had to swallow, dampen, deny, suppress a lot of hurt and emotional pain. He could wish to be a sociopath so that he could truly not have to feel any of it, to truly not care.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I found this quote about the differences between psychopathy and sociopathy:

 

“Sociopaths are different from psychopaths and feel guilt for their actions. However, their emotional connection is limited to a certain group of people only with whom they can interact and build relationships with. Outside this group, the behavior of a sociopath is similar to that of a psychopath and he will reject the social norms just like him. A sociopath however, does not have a tendency to lie to people or manipulate them especially if they are part of his family or his group of friends instead he has genuine feelings for them and will feel remorse if he ends up hurting them in any way.”

 

If this is correct then I can quite easily see Sherlock as a sociopath. He obviously cares for certain people, even if he has difficulty / discomfort showing it. But it’s a small group of his chosen people, his attitude to ‘others’ does seem indifferent the majority of the time. The one exception I can think of is in ‘The Great Game’. I think he really was concerned about the old lady and struggled to suppress his concern (that’s how I saw the performance anyway).

 

That definition seems to fit pretty well with Sherlock, but it seems there are a number of various definitions of the term 'sociopath'.

 

I think the most heartfelt emotional response Sherlock has to any client is with regard to Henry Knight in HoB when he helps him overcome his 'demons' at Dewer's Hollow. Perhaps Sherlock does so because he just had an eye opener of a scare himself. Or maybe it's the critical level of the situation; Henry about to commit suicide.

[Janie]

 

 

 Daddy Holmes has a big secret that Sherlock and probably Mycroft found out about.

 

What do you mean by the "daddy's big secret"? He was the only one in the family who seemed quite normal to me.

[sherlockandjohn]

The thought that Sherlock is actually "bursting", as the writers say, is interesting. Perhaps new critical situations in series 4 will bring more of his emotions to the bursting point?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

What do you mean by the "daddy's big secret"? He was the only one in the family who seemed quite normal to me.

 

   Yes, he did, didn't he?  But in "A Study In Pink" Mycroft says something about Mummy being upset. Sherlock comes back with "I'm not the one who upset her, Mycroft."  In the commentary Benedict starts to talk about that scene, something that Daddy Holmes did. So there is something is going on there and not is all as it seems, which is par for the course in this series.

[Janie]

Thanks, Fox. I just read it in another thread. Now I recall that I heard about this interview/commentary. 

[Riddle]

 

 

I found this quote about the differences between psychopathy and sociopathy:

 

“Sociopaths are different from psychopaths and feel guilt for their actions. However, their emotional connection is limited to a certain group of people only with whom they can interact and build relationships with. Outside this group, the behavior of a sociopath is similar to that of a psychopath and he will reject the social norms just like him. A sociopath however, does not have a tendency to lie to people or manipulate them especially if they are part of his family or his group of friends instead he has genuine feelings for them and will feel remorse if he ends up hurting them in any way.”

 

If this is correct then I can quite easily see Sherlock as a sociopath. He obviously cares for certain people, even if he has difficulty / discomfort showing it. But it’s a small group of his chosen people, his attitude to ‘others’ does seem indifferent the majority of the time. The one exception I can think of is in ‘The Great Game’. I think he really was concerned about the old lady and struggled to suppress his concern (that’s how I saw the performance anyway).

 

That definition seems to fit pretty well with Sherlock, but it seems there are a number of various definitions of the term 'sociopath'.

 

I think the most heartfelt emotional response Sherlock has to any client is with regard to Henry Knight in HoB when he helps him overcome his 'demons' at Dewer's Hollow. Perhaps Sherlock does so because he just had an eye opener of a scare himself. Or maybe it's the critical level of the situation; Henry about to commit suicide.

 

 

Of course, yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about that scene and will have to watch that episode again (Oh dear ). I watched them all in pretty quick succession so some of the scenes are a bit hazy. Any excuse for a re-watch

 

I agree with you about varying definitions of personality disorders. The one I quoted sounds pretty much like a normal person who isn't particularly sociable.

 

 

[Pamela]

I agree, I've always felt that Sherlock was his most human in Dewer's Hollow when he made Henry look at the dog.

[Slithytove]

It doesn't surprise me that Moffat was not trying to portray Sherlock as a sociopath. It always seemed more likely that the character was actually a sensitive man who convinces himself and others that he has no feelings and doesn't care, as a way of shielding himself against getting hurt.

 

However, to play the devil's advocate for a moment....it is very easy to read Sherlock as a sociopath (or psychopath - whether there is any difference is debatable.). Most can mimic emotions they do not feel, for their own purposes. We have seen him turn on the charm and then switch it off like a light when dealing with Molly, Janine, and various clients and witnesses. Sociopaths value people insofar as they are useful, and can be possessive over those who "belong" to them. Witness Sherlock's violent response when Mrs Hudson is hurt. He values her, because she gives him a deal on the rent, she brings him food, she makes tea for him..... She makes his life more comfortable, therefore she matters. If she did not, he wouldn't care what happened to her. (If he was a sociopath) The sociopathic world view is egocentric - consider how he keeps talking to John even when the latter has gone out. Then there is his profession. Sociopaths are said to do well in high risk, high prestige jobs where emotions must not get in the way. Consulting detective has all these qualities.

 

However, if I had to identify a personality disorder that fits Sherlock, I would say he might be a narcissist. Extreme sense of own importance, difficulty empathising with others, need for admiration, strong sense of entitlement, expects to be treated as special.... The description seems to fit him like a glove.

 

And beneath that facade of arrogance and superiority, a terrible sense of worthlessness. Through all three series, there are many indications that Sherlock actually has low self-esteem, valuing himself only for his genius and believing that this is the only side of him that anyone else cares about. Series 3 has given the strongest indication that he doesn't understand that people love and value him as a human being, rather than a thinking machine.

 

Not a sociopath, surely...but a very complicated character.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And for me that is the brilliance of this series. They have made him complex and have allowed us, as viewers, to see that too. In the canon, he was complex and Watson gave his readers hints of that, but Moffat and Gatiss have really brought that to the fore. Even John has benefited in this, even though we are uncomfortable with it. As it has been stated before, he not just fluffy, silly jumpers and bumbling about after Sherlock. He does have a dark side, as was seen in "His Last Vow" all though he stated it clearly to Sherlock in "ASiB".  "I was a soldier, I killed people!  You were a doctor! I had my bad days!"  and he is strangling Sherlock at the time.

 

  It did seem to be played for laughs at the time, but maybe there was something more serious...darker...that at least some of us missed?

[Mr. Holmes]

It doesn't surprise me that Moffat was not trying to portray Sherlock as a sociopath. It always seemed more likely that the character was actually a sensitive man who convinces himself and others that he has no feelings and doesn't care, as a way of shielding himself against getting hurt.

 

 

That was always my interpretation too.  And I always thought that little remark to Anderson in the first episode was also just to troll him. 

[Riddle]

 

 

 

I found this quote about the differences between psychopathy and sociopathy:

 

“Sociopaths are different from psychopaths and feel guilt for their actions. However, their emotional connection is limited to a certain group of people only with whom they can interact and build relationships with. Outside this group, the behavior of a sociopath is similar to that of a psychopath and he will reject the social norms just like him. A sociopath however, does not have a tendency to lie to people or manipulate them especially if they are part of his family or his group of friends instead he has genuine feelings for them and will feel remorse if he ends up hurting them in any way.”

 

If this is correct then I can quite easily see Sherlock as a sociopath. He obviously cares for certain people, even if he has difficulty / discomfort showing it. But it’s a small group of his chosen people, his attitude to ‘others’ does seem indifferent the majority of the time. The one exception I can think of is in ‘The Great Game’. I think he really was concerned about the old lady and struggled to suppress his concern (that’s how I saw the performance anyway).

 

That definition seems to fit pretty well with Sherlock, but it seems there are a number of various definitions of the term 'sociopath'.

 

I think the most heartfelt emotional response Sherlock has to any client is with regard to Henry Knight in HoB when he helps him overcome his 'demons' at Dewer's Hollow. Perhaps Sherlock does so because he just had an eye opener of a scare himself. Or maybe it's the critical level of the situation; Henry about to commit suicide.

 

 

Of course, yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about that scene and will have to watch that episode again (Oh dear ). I watched them all in pretty quick succession so some of the scenes are a bit hazy. Any excuse for a re-watch

 

I agree with you about varying definitions of personality disorders. The one I quoted sounds pretty much like a normal person who isn't particularly sociable.

 

 

 

 

I've just watched it again and I didn't really see it the same way, I saw more frustration and excitment in it than compassion. He's figured out what's going on and Henry is still wailing about like a maniac so he drags him over to the dog shouting 'Look at it!'. Seconds later Sherlock is back to jumping up and down exclaiming how brilliant the case was and it's John that has to pull him upon his timing. I'm not saying there was no emotion in it at all, but I did see more in the old lady situation. In this I saw a mixture of excitement, frustration and of course the effects of the drug making him a bit manic himself.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

 

 

I found this quote about the differences between psychopathy and sociopathy:

 

“Sociopaths are different from psychopaths and feel guilt for their actions. However, their emotional connection is limited to a certain group of people only with whom they can interact and build relationships with. Outside this group, the behavior of a sociopath is similar to that of a psychopath and he will reject the social norms just like him. A sociopath however, does not have a tendency to lie to people or manipulate them especially if they are part of his family or his group of friends instead he has genuine feelings for them and will feel remorse if he ends up hurting them in any way.”

 

If this is correct then I can quite easily see Sherlock as a sociopath. He obviously cares for certain people, even if he has difficulty / discomfort showing it. But it’s a small group of his chosen people, his attitude to ‘others’ does seem indifferent the majority of the time. The one exception I can think of is in ‘The Great Game’. I think he really was concerned about the old lady and struggled to suppress his concern (that’s how I saw the performance anyway).

 

That definition seems to fit pretty well with Sherlock, but it seems there are a number of various definitions of the term 'sociopath'.

 

I think the most heartfelt emotional response Sherlock has to any client is with regard to Henry Knight in HoB when he helps him overcome his 'demons' at Dewer's Hollow. Perhaps Sherlock does so because he just had an eye opener of a scare himself. Or maybe it's the critical level of the situation; Henry about to commit suicide.

 

 

Of course, yes, you're right. I'd forgotten about that scene and will have to watch that episode again (Oh dear ). I watched them all in pretty quick succession so some of the scenes are a bit hazy. Any excuse for a re-watch

 

I agree with you about varying definitions of personality disorders. The one I quoted sounds pretty much like a normal person who isn't particularly sociable.

 

 

 

 

I've just watched it again and I didn't really see it the same way, I saw more frustration and excitment in it than compassion. He's figured out what's going on and Henry is still wailing about like a maniac so he drags him over to the dog shouting 'Look at it!'. Seconds later Sherlock is back to jumping up and down exclaiming how brilliant the case was and it's John that has to pull him upon his timing. I'm not saying there was no emotion in it at all, but I did see more in the old lady situation. In this I saw a mixture of excitement, frustration and of course the effects of the drug making him a bit manic himself.

 

 

Okay, I didn't interpret it quite like that, although clearly he is enjoying the case! I think he is capable of demonstrating both compassion and ignorance with the same person within seconds He didn't mean to be insensitive, but he was.

 

I also felt he was a bit scared at the thought of that kid dying, if he didn't solve the puzzle in TGG.

[Janie]

I always thought that he was rather enjoying the game (in TGG) than caring for the victims. Of course he looked shaken when the old lady died but on the other side he seemed very excited that he'd solved the fake painting puzzle that he almost forgot that the kid was still counting down. I think if there weren't others he could have easily let him die.

[wildwoodflower]

 

 

 

 Daddy Holmes has a big secret that Sherlock and probably Mycroft found out about.

 

What do you mean by the "daddy's big secret"? He was the only one in the family who seemed quite normal to me.

 

 

Yeah. Where are you getting that?  ACD canon has nothing but the brother and "art in the blood" Vernet reference to relative on his mother's side (I think). Although the writers have said all iterations of Holmes are fair game as sources for material, I haven't heard anything about that. Not thatI'd mind. It would be fun. But so far we only know what we've seen on screen. If you have a source please feel free to share though.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

The source as far as Sherlock is concerned is a brief interrupted comment near the beginning of the audio commentary for "Great Game."  On the forum, someone has said that the idea originated in The Seven-Percent Solution and was also used in Young Sherlock Holmes.

 

Basic idea is that Father Holmes had an affair, which the entire family was doing their English best to ignore until young Sherlock blurted it into the open.  If you search the forum for father affair, you'll find a number of posts on this matter.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  In canon, Holmes never mentions his parents, ever. Watson remarks in one story that he thought Holmes to be an orphan. In another story they are on a train and Watson is admiring the country side and the farmsteads and homes along the way. Holmes then tells Watson that these isolated houses fills him with more terror then does the darkest, dirtiest, most crime filled back street in all of London. Watson is totally aghast. Holmes then tells him the reason. It is because terrible crimes can go on behind these sedate, private walls that go forever unreported, unnoticed. That the people have no respect for the law, indeed, feel that they are above it.

 

  It is quite a long discourse, and is posted here in the Forum somewhere, any way. From this scholars have deduced that Holmes's home life had been far from a happy one. Back in the Victorian era and even before, men ruled the home, completely and depending on the man and his temperament, it could be a happy home, or not. The thoughts that either one of Holmes's parents had an affair that ended very badly, something both Sherlock and Mycroft at least knew about or even witnessed goes way back. Some attribute Holmes's drug use to some kind of event similar to this.

[Carol the Dabbler]

In canon, Holmes never mentions his parents, ever. Watson remarks in one story that he thought Holmes to be an orphan.

 

Holmes does mention one of his grandmothers, though, a sister of Vernet, the French artist.  And he mentions his brother, of course.